The Redemptive Work of Worship Part 3
Well, it’s certainly been an exciting week around here regarding the subject of allowing non-Christians to take part in worship ministry. In the last post, I began to lay down some of my criteria for how that might work.
I promised that we’d talk about the Scriptural foundation that I feel makes this situation profitable for the Kingdom, and I’ll try to briefly lay some of that foundation for my thinking, without being redundant. If you haven’t read the last post, please do so, and keep in mind the specific criteria that I’ve established to handle such a situation.
One of the problems with trying to dictate our Sunday services based upon Scripture is that there is just not that much discussion in Scripture about how church services should be set up. We do have some reference to church services (for example, the story of Eutychus in Acts 20), but most of the time, we are told more of not what to do in church services as opposed of what to do. We have a great deal of information about the “revival” style services and street preaching that went on in the early church, as well as the founding of the early church, but there isn’t really a manual about what a church service is supposed to consist of. We have a good idea that we are to take Communion together in church, and sing together, and we know that Paul preached at church services, so we can probably assume that preaching is good for church. However, we just don’t have enough information to conclude that church services in the time of Acts were not evangelistic.
It is possible, because of the danger of Christian persecution, that church services were not evangelistic in nature. I don’t know that we should Scripturally jump to the conclusion that church services shouldn’t be evangelistic, though. There is so much discussion in the New Testament about spreading the Gospel that I can’t seem to get my mind around the idea that at least one service a week shouldn’t be devoted to that end. Most of us were converted in a church service, and if my pastor had adopted a “deep theology” approach to every service; I’m not certain that I ever would have found the Gospel accessible enough to accept the Holy Spirit’s drawing. That said, I believe that God is most honored in church when His fame is not only honored but also spread among those who don’t know His glory.
Therefore, our church strives to get people involved in the ministry from day one. The minute someone walks in the door in church or in small groups, we try to find a job for them to do. We want them to take immediate part of the church, knowing that if they are exposed to the truth of the Gospel, it will force a decision one way or the other eventually. Until that time, their sense of ownership and community will continue to bring them back into the church.
This is my reasoning for allowing someone to participate in the worship band that has a questionable conversion background. Again, remember that I’m not pursuing them for that job, they are approaching me. Therefore, I am in the driver’s seat regarding their continued participation in the band. If this person begins to take an attitude or begins acting out in a way that obviously reflects their opposition to the work of the Gospel, they are gone.
I still believe that God is honored even when unregenerate man honors him. There is a ton of discussion in Scripture about “everything that has breath praising the Lord.” God obviously wants to draw unregenerate man to Himself, but He is not repulsed when even the demons pay him obeisance. I think that is why the apocalyptic literature in the Bible discusses the humbling of the entire world under God’s mighty hand of wrath (”every knee shall bow, and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”). In the day of judgement, when false teachers come before God and say, “Lord, Lord, we did many mighty works in your name,” and he tells them “Depart from me, I never knew you,” He is not rebuking their magnification of His glory on the earth, rather He is casting them into Hell for their lack of holding God’s glory in their own hearts.
I just can’t escape the text of I Cor. 14:24-25 regarding this issue. When a non-believer praises God’s glory, we aren’t told to rebuke them, or even to share the Gospel with them immediately. We are to be glad that God is praised, because God is the one who will humble that lost person to repentance. I feel that way about members of my praise band. If they are not regenerate, they won’t be able to maintain that status and continue to participate in Spirit-led worship without being forced to make a decision. They may make the wrong decision, but they won’t stay with the band and play worship music if that is the case.
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
hey there! I think you are interpreting I Cor. 14:24-25 in a wrong way. From my understanding (and for those who knows better, please feel free to correct me), our genuine praise for God can actually work out to convince any non-believer to recognize who God is. Meaning that the unbeliever, then starts to become a believer and participate in worship. The order of event here is very important:
- Believer praises God
- Unbeliever comes and sees the praise of believers
- Unbeliever recognizes who God is
- Unbeliever becomes a believer in God
- Used-to-be unbeliever joins in worship
i hope you don’t get this the wrong way, but, i will really suggest talking to your Senior Pastor about this passage that you have been trying to hold on to. I seriously think you are taking it out of context.
June 13th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
I agree with what you’ve said regarding this passage. Where’s my misinterpretation?
June 13th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I’ve said this before and I completely agree with Rhoy Pamparo. From your post, you don’t seem to understand the context of 1 Corinthians 14:24-25. Nowhere does it say that we are to be glad that an unbeliever has praised God. It just says that our worship should be so genuine towards God that the unbelievers among us indeed declare that “God is certainly among you!”
As further proof that you’re misinterpreting the context of the passage, read a few verses beyond that. 1 Corinthians 14:26 says, “What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.”
It says when the YOU gather: the body of believers who make up the Church of Christ. He is writing to the body of believers in Corinthians. If you’re going to use 1 Corinthians 14 as justification that church services should be evangelistic, then you need to consider this: Paul tells us that church services are the assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, NOT the lost and unregenerate.
Not only that but Paul tells us that ALL THINGS within that assembly of believers should be done for EDIFICATION. This has been what I’ve been trying to say across the past 3 blog posts on this topic.
Church is primarily for the sheep, not the goats.
June 13th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
By the way, in my Bible (NASB), 1 Corinthians 14:20-40 is under the heading of “Instructions for the Church.” There is without a doubt that these verses that we’ve been discussing are aimed at the church, meaning the body of believers in Christ.
June 13th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
“Church is primarily for the sheep, not the goats.”
Again, I don’t think you guys get it. Big church? Little church? the body of believers? The building? the service between 9-11 on Sunday AM?
This statement suggests that church is between 9-11 on Sunday AM and only for believers. Is that what your saying?
June 13th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
In a broad sense, the Church is the universal body of true believers in Christ. Church also refers to the ASSEMBLY of those believers as indicated by 1 Corinthians 14.
June 13th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Also, I said primarily, not only. Please don’t twist what I say.
I’ve said many times that unbelievers are welcome to join in a church service. The fact of the matter is that the church service (AKA the assembly of believers in worshiping God) is PRIMARILY, not ONLY, for the assembled body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 14 acknowledges that there will, at times, be unbelievers in the midst of the assembly but nowhere does it say that the assembly should be aimed for the unbeliever.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Joel, your still missing it.
What’s a church service(assembly). In this case, the Sunday AM service is being said to be THE church service and in saying this, the focus is believers. But, is that accurate?
Can this “assembly” be any time of the week and in looking at it this way, can Sunday AM be primarily for the unbeliever.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Or is every time a group of believers get together, considered an assembly, so there are no options as have been given in these posts.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
@Jeremy - First of all, I really appreciate you taking time to think through this and clarify some things. Also, you’re right that we don’t have a lot of guidelines for what to do in a church *service.* Boy, wouldn’t that be nice so that we wouldn’t have to have conversations like this! However, I have to agree with Rhoy and Joel in that your misinterpreting the passage.
@inWorship - I think we totally get what you’ve been trying to say and I agree with you that the Church shouldn’t be defined as just “an assembly of believers.” It’s obviously so much more than that, and if you go that route, the only way evangelism could ever happen is one on one. If we considered small groups or Bible studies “assemblies of believers” that would be silly, because according to the conversation we’re having here it would disallow any opportunity for evangelism within those groups (which would be ridiculous, because to me, the primary purpose of small groups especially is for evangelism.
That feeds into this discussion as well. I believe many churches think that small groups should be for edification of believers and that the church service (not the broad Church) should be for evangelism. That seems backwards to me.
Small groups are usually (not always) home-based, which gives you an easy opportunity to invite your neighbors, a non-threatening location for people who might be turned off by “church” (not the Church), and a casual atmosphere that easily facilitates discussion.
Sure, it doesn’t specifically mention if early church services were evangelistic or not, but it seems to me that Peter and Paul mainly went out to preach evangelistically and looking at Acts 2 the early believers continued to meet together in each others homes and at the Temple. The times that the lost were saved were when the Apostles were preaching and teaching outside of the homes and the Temple as far as we can tell. No doubt some of them were probably saved during services and home gatherings, and praise God for that, for as Jeremy said, “if they are exposed to the truth of the Gospel, it will force a decision one way or the other eventually.”
Now, as I mentioned on another post, that’s not to say that we shouldn’t be careful about going too deep during church *services* and going over people’s heads with complicated doctrine and theology. And that’s not to say that we shouldn’t do all we can do to make unbelievers feel at home within church *services.* And praise God for the people who have been saved through evangelistic and seeker services. But, as my pastor says, “We should be seeker-sensitive in every area of our life.” If we’re doing a correct job of personal, lifestyle evangelism and discipleship, then bringing those we’ve discipled to church, I believe growth will be better facilitated.
Those of us who believe that the church *service* should be for believers and those of us that believe it should be for seekers are probably just going to end up going round in circles on here. I say we respectfully appreciate the other side’s viewpoint and realize that either way, God is reaching souls and being glorified.
I apologize for the long comment - I’ll probably explore this on iamanoffering.com soon in more depth as well.
June 13th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Ryan, I think the reality is that most of us are very similar in our thoughts here, but as you’ve alluded to, there are different styles of ministry.
I can honestly say we each here serve the same God and have the same intentions in mind, we just are probably going to go about it different ways.
2 Important things here are that the edification of the church has to take place. Discipleship has to take place, evangelism has to take place. Let’s just make sure we don’t focus on one, but confirm that all are taking place.
I am sure your apology for the long comment is to Jeremy, but I can say it does not offend me. this has been a good discussion and you’ve added to it.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Amen and amen to that! I haven’t been offended by you as well. It’s always good to be challenged in our thinking so that we can either a) admit we’re wrong
or b) strengthen our viewpoint by coming up with a more convincing argument (to ourselves and to others)
June 14th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
I haven’t seen any rebuttals against 1 Corinthians 14 other than “I think the church service should also be concerned with evangelism because it sounds good.” If you can just point out a Scripture passage (in its correct context) that says that a church service should be concerned with evangelism, I will read it and hopefully come to the truth. Please don’t just argue because evangelism in a church service sounds like a good idea. When have the thoughts and ideas of men been higher than the wisdom of God, which He reveals to us in Scripture?
But I think this discussion has diverged from its original topic, which was the topic of unbelievers in the worship team. I think it’s arrogant to think that just because you’re the “head” of the “worship team,” it means that you’re the only “worship leader.” My stance on this issue is so strong because I think it’s offensive to God to allow an unbeliever to partake in ANY leadership role in the church, including a position in the worship team.
Can they sing songs of praise? Yes. That doesn’t mean that the praise is acceptable to God. When did we start concerning ourselves with the well-being of humans over the pleasure of our Lord? One day, every knee will bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus is Lord. And then the unbelievers will be thrown in hell. Again, just because an unbeliever can praise God doesn’t mean that the praise is acceptable to Him. Just because an unbeliever is playing an instrument to aid in praise doesn’t mean that it is glorifying to God.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
June 14th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Bob Kauflin, owner and author of Worship Matters, wrote an excellent blog post on why he thinks non-Christians shouldn’t be on the worship team.
http://www.worshipmatters.com/2008/05/non-christians-on-the-worship-team/
June 15th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Joel have you read Bob’s article. It is very good, but I don’t think you read it the same way I did.
He says that non believers should not be used to lead believer services. Does that make sense
Bob said,
“I think those with a public ministry (however you define it) in the church should be held to a higher standard of conduct that those who serve more behind the scenes.”
“n the above paragraph I was mostly thinking of situations where churches are more concerned about the sound of the music than the nature of the church.”
“If what we’re engaged in is a media production, drawing a crowd, or a motivational event, then it’s not as important who does what. But if we are the gathering of the church, the called out ones, those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed by his blood, who have professed faith in his substitutionary sacrifice, and are seeking to live for his glory, then it matters.”
Bob clearly understand the difference between a gathering of believers and an outreach service. Many churches today have determined that Sunday AM is the best time to have an outreach service, because it is the most likely time that someone who is an unbeliever will attend the church.
As Ryan and I were discussing earlier, churches will have different styles of ministry. Some will use Sunday as the believers service, some will use Wednesday, some will have multiple services as well as classes. the important thing is that both outreach and discipleship is happening.
I would not recruit a non believer to help lead worship for a specifically believers gathering. I would however and will continue to allow non believers to be a part of our large weekend gathering that sees many new comers and non believers in participation. Because that service for us is as much outreach as it is discipleship. We see the importance of making that service a large part of a believers and a non believers life.
So, I agree with Bob. Do you?
June 15th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
How can an unbeliever lead an unbeliever in worship, whether it’s during an outreach event or not? How can an unbeliever do outreach at all? A blind man cannot lead another blind man. In the same way, an unbeliever should NOT be held in any position of leadership, including worship, whether the target audience is made of believers or nonbelievers.
I guess you missed the part of Bob’s post where he says that the distinction between the church and the world needs to stop being blurred. Allowing nonbelievers to participate in Christian leadership is just telling the world that there really is no distinction between the Church of Christ and the world.
It’s evident to me that you, and possibly Jeremy, are part of the seeker-sensitive or Emergent Church movement. If I’m wrong, please correct me. I have a lot of issues with the doctrines and behaviors of the seeker-sensitive movement and the Emergent Church because of issues like this. They place ministry and evangelism above God.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Joel, I actually grew up Baptist(Conservative Baptist Assoc.), and we understood how people need to be accepted into the life of a church, believer or not.
I’m done here.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Yet again, you are placing the desires of the lost above Scripture. I still have yet to see any Biblical basis for any of the things you’ve said.
Al Mohler and R.C. Sproul talk about unbelievers in churches and how to go about it Scripturally in this video. They explain things a lot better than I ever could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2zvqQ1w-Os
June 15th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
By the way, please don’t give up. This isn’t about whether you are right or whether I’m right. It’s about coming to a Biblical and Scriptural conclusion to an issue of theology.
June 15th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Joel,
While I agree with your stance, I think you might be coming across a bit more assertive than argumentitative (as in, your asserting your viewpoint rather than making a valid argument.) It might be wise to step back and just think through some things. Automatically labeling someone as part of the EC movement just because of a few comments isn’t the best construction on this I don’t think.
However, @inWorship - if you’re sticking around - and I hope you are - I think you misunderstood Bob’s comments actually. When he was talking about “If what we’re engaged in is a media production, drawing a crowd, or a motivational event, then it’s not as important who does what” I pretty sure he’s meaning to say that is not what congregational meetings are supposed to look like (evangelistic or not.) I think he’s making the point that some church services are just that - motivational media productions to draw a crowd and not what they should be, “the gathering of the church, the called out ones, those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed by his blood, who have professed faith in his substitutionary sacrifice, and are seeking to live for his glory.” I could be wrong.
But Joel is right, the discussion has gone away from the original topic. I still feel it unwise and unbiblical to have non-Christians in any position of leadership as he mentioned, but I have yet to formulate a valid argument for it yet. I’m hoping to post my thoughts on my site in the next week or two.
June 16th, 2008 at 1:46 am
I may be a little too assertive in this discussion, I don’t deny that. I will pipe down a bit. That is, if this discussion even continues (since inWorship has left and I don’t know if Jeremy has been keeping up?).
My apologies if my inquiry of belonging to the EC movement seemed accusatory. I guess in a way it was. I didn’t mean for it to be offensive.
I’ll end this comment with this note: it’s not about what we think is best for the church. It’s about what God has declared His church to be.
June 16th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Joel here is my reason for backing off.
#1 This has gone down a different road and I feel it is no longer a discussion, because my thoughts have held zero merit in the process. I believe that in process, there is freedom. I may not have the perfect scripture to back up my thoughts. So if we are playing scripture showdown, I can’t win.
#2 You have given me many scriptures and references to some great teachers that hold specific views on Biblical interpretation. I don’t wish to take major theological stances and try to dissect them. I know what our church does to honor God and the church(big and small) He has declared us to be. I am very comfortable with the decisions we have made in the process, so there really isn’t anything you are saying I haven’t heard nor do I see myself taking on a specific doctrinal stance because of this discussion. Joel has done a nice job of painting the picture of what he has gone through to hold his church accountable to God with the resources it has. I appreciate his honesty, I also appreciate the rebuttal, but at this point, we are going down a road of no end, so I stepped back.
#3 To be clear, I am not angry or frustrated with you or anyone else at this point. I believe I could be if I continued to argue as Ryan alluded to and I don’t wish to do that.
Ryan , in your response to Bob’s post, I think you are probably correct. I originally read that post when it first came out and through discussion with some others, we saw the value of multiple styles of services at our church. The emphasis has always been on the believer and we will continue to walk that path, but there are aspects of some things we do that the non-believer is welcomed into. When Bob wrote that, I saw the difference between an “Acts” style church service and services that are geared for people to hear the gospel message. Not a watering down or a self help stance, but a true focus on what they need to hear and how to best communicate to them. That starts outside the walls of our church, but needs to continue in some facet as they arrive inside the walls.
Taking your words, I could be wrong. And that is OK. I am comfortable with the Sovereignty of God and how dear I hold it. I have never and will never place someone or something above Him and His glory. I surrender to Him and answer to Him alone. This is not speaking to any doctrinal stances that have been made here. It is speaking honestly to my intent. Love God and Love People.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:28 am
@inWorship - Thanks for your gracious response here! You’re right that we’ve all kind of asserted our doctrinal differences in this discussion a little bit. Hopefully we’ve all learned from each other two key things: that evangelism must happen somehow and that the building up of believers must also happen somehow. As long as God’s Word, Jesus’ centrality and His truth aren’t compromised, I’m guessing He can use several ways to do this.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Ryan, agreed!