The Redemptive Work of Worship Part 2
There’s been a little bit of hubbub about this recent post. I’ve been called on the carpet about my decision to allow non-Christians to play onstage in the worship band. Currently, our church does not have any non-Christians on our team, but I have used unsaved people in the past, and I plan to do it again. What I didn’t do in that last post, however, was explain the situation in which I would allow someone not yet Christian to join the team. Maybe if I explain my criteria, you’ll be able to stomach this unpalatable idea a bit more easily.
I would never pursue the unsaved to join the team because of their musical talents. Some churches these days go out and hire professional musicians to play in their Sunday morning services. They want to present the most powerful presentation possible, so they simply hire great musicians, sometimes regardless of their religious backgrounds. I am not part of that line of thinking. Instead, my use of a non-Christian musician only comes about through what I feel would be Divine circumstances. Basically, this musician would come to me and express an interest in playing with us; I’d give them an audition and go from there. I don’t view our praise band as an opportunity to evangelize per se; however, I do believe that evangelism can occur even onstage.
I would have the band member agree to several behavioral criteria. Since I haven’t gone out to find and recruit this person as a member of the band, I would be in the driver’s seat regarding their continued participation in it. I’d have the prospective musician agree to a few behavioral guidelines (it doesn’t do to have a member of the worship band come in on Sunday morning hung over from the night before). If this member can honestly agree to my contract, I’d say it is illustrative of the fact that they are on the road to redemption.
Tomorrow, we’ll talk more about my criteria for band membership, and I also plan to get more deeply into some Scriptural reasons I think that this kind of situation is ok and even God-honoring. Don’t hesitate to disagree with me here. I entirely understand the passion behind this topic, and we’ll work it out together.
Tags:worship leading Worship Music Share This
Recently
June 9th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Here’s the thing. Allowing non-Christians to be worship leaders is not the problem; it’s a symptom of an even larger problem. Here’s the problem: an incorrect definition of what it means to be a worship leader.
The main problem I’m seeing is that you view the position of worship leader as nothing more than a person to play music so that the congregation can sing during service. Have you come out and said those exact words? Maybe, maybe not, but mindset and actions speak much louder than words.
Please define “worship leader” before you continue on this topic.
June 9th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
You and I seem to differ about what a worship leader is. I don’t think that someone that sings back-up vocals or plays rhythm guitar is a worship leader. Instead, they are part of the support crew. I am the worship leader (not trying to pat myself on the back here-its just my title, and a serious responsibility). I lead the congregational worship. I select the songs for worship. I pray for God’s guidance in accomplishing this goal. So, in answer to your question, I would not allow a non-Christian to lead worship. Rather, I would not object to allowing them to participate in it. I also think that this might fall under the admonition in I Cor. 14:24-25 not to discourage a non-believer to worship God; instead we should encourage them to do it.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
That’s a little enlightening. We definitely have different considerations for what constitutes a “worship leader” in contemporary, corporate worship. I get a distinct feeling that you equate worship and praise to be the same thing. Worship is more than just music. It’s about a lifestyle of glory to God; a lifestyle that an unbeliever cannot lead apart from the grace of God. Everyone in any position of leadership in a church is expected to be an example of what it means to be a believer according to 1 Timothy 4:12. That includes everyone on the worship TEAM.
Unbelievers participating in the worship team have more important things to worry about than playing music. They need to be SAVED. In their unbelieving state, none of the worship they bring to the Lord is acceptable. As a worship leader, you shouldn’t be concerned with whether or not an unbeliever should be allowed to play on your team: all of Scripture is very clear on that answer. You need to be concerned with preaching the Gospel to that person and praying for their salvation.
In addition, I don’t agree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14:24-25. It doesn’t talk about encouraging or discouraging worship in anyone. Rather, it says that our worship of the Lord and Father should be so genuine and holy that it should move any unbelievers in our presence to fall on their face and proclaim that the Lord is God.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
You are definitely right about worship not just being about music. That is a sentiment that I have dealt with at some length on this blog. Worship is connected to lifelong sacrifice to God’s glory.
I have to disagree with your claim that “Scripture is very clear on that answer.” Scripture just isn’t clear on this issue. We can apply some Scriptural principles to this issue, but I’m inclined to think that when the Psalmist says “Let everything that has breath praise the Lord,” he means it, regardless of their position of redemption.
Good thoughts. Let’s keep it up!
June 10th, 2008 at 1:17 am
I’m glad we agree that worship is indeed a life of death to oneself and living for the glory of God. Would you agree if I said that the church is primarily (even only) for the regenerate sheep of the Shepherd?
In modern culture, the church has become a place to “bring the lost” so that they can “enjoy our music” and “hear sermons” with a hope that they’ll gradually learn who Jesus was and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. I strongly believe that the church is a place for the redeemed to gather and worship God together. Unbelievers sitting in the pews will be hearing sermons aimed for those who are saved and they will either become confused or they will have a false security of salvation.
Am I saying to forbid lost people from attending church? Of course not. Here’s the blunt of what I’m saying: the New Testament Church is the bride of Christ and the bride of Christ is the body of all truly born-again believers in the world. In that setting, an unbeliever has no place on a worship team. As an unbeliever, they’re not even worshiping God themselves.
Am I being too controversial? It’s late and I did a semi-ramble here. Forgive me!
June 10th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Admin - thanks for better construction on your responses here! Forgive me if I seemed judgmental in the last discussion - just wanted to remind all of us how important it is to respond with grace (Ephesians 4:29).
I have to agree with Wayward - Scripture is clear that “no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit” and the only way that they could say “Jesus is Lord” by the Holy Spirit is to have the Spirit dwelling in them, which happens at conversion. If people aren’t believers and they’re asked to even “just lead music” not necessarily be “worship leaders” (more on that in a second) it could still be a dangerous situation because people in the church (in my experience) assume that people “up front” are believers and are leaders in the church. How can we expect those musicians to be leaders when they don’t have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
And should we define someone who is the “leader” in the forefront as the only worship leader? I don’t think so. That actually implies that worship is just about music. Admin, you said, “I lead the congregational worship. I select the songs for worship. I pray for God’s guidance in accomplishing this goal.” To me, this is kind of equating worship with music again. But as I mentioned before, we’re leading worship with our lives, not just by picking music. The musicians should be expected to lead worship on and off the stage, right? How can they do that if they are not believers?
I really appreciate this follow up post, but I still think we need to be extremely careful with this one.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Just wanted to throw my two cents in (again…)
Although I appreciate the clarification of your stand regarding unsaved in the “worship band”, it does not change my opinion of this matter.
As has been said, I disagree with your definition of a worship “leader”. Regardless of who picks the songs, you all are on stage “leading” the entire church in “worship, therefore they are worship leaders.
You may lead the leaders, but the leaders are still leading others. (you can quote me on that!
June 11th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
I have one question.
Can Sunday morning be outreach?
June 12th, 2008 at 10:32 am
I have one answer, well a couple of answers, actually.
Yes. Sunday Morning can be an outreach, and from my perspective, it must be an outreach. It seems that we’re going to come down, in this discussion, to the time-honored dispute between Purpose Driven Churches and the Anti-PDC movement. I believe that God is most honored when seeking men and women are drawn to Him. Therefore, I structure my service toward that end. I’m ultimately not the one doing the drawing, but I can do a lot to get out of the way and create an atmosphere with litle distraction from that drawing power of the Holy Spirit.
It would seem that our friends here are of the other opinion. I may be misrepresenting them here, but I think that they believe that church is for the glorification of God through the edification of the Saints, and that evangelism in the church service itself is good but secondary to that main goal.
June 12th, 2008 at 11:35 am
I don’t think it’s fruitful to call it “Anti-PDC” The Purpose Driven Church method has lots of benefits and I’m not opposed to it, it’s just a different viewpoint and way of doing things.
Also, I believe that evangelism is THE main goal of the church, but it happens outside of the church *service.* Jesus said, “Go and make disciples…” He didn’t say get people to church to make them disciples.
A lot of people often cite and subscribe to Sally Morgenthaler’s book “Worship Evangelism,” but even she has had second thoughts about it. You can read some quotes from a Rev! magazine article about her thoughts here.
I believe that the church (building) is primarily a place to build and equip believers but the Church (the people) primarily has the responsibility of getting out of our comfort zone, going out and making disciples. And boy, do I need work in this area!
June 12th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“Also, I believe that evangelism is THE main goal of the church, but it happens outside of the church *service.*”
This is where I am confused.
Sunday AM is not church nor is it necessarily THE church service. If church is about the already saved, I think it is accomplishing that . Just look at your churches classes and ministries. how many are for non- believers and how many are for believers. I bet 95% or more are for the believer.
Here is my point. We should stop calling Sunday AM between 9 and 11 church service. It is only one aspect of what the church does and not THE aspect or THE service. It is the perfect time to evangelize and reach out to people wanting to attend a service.
So if you take that perspective, music, worship, teaching, volunteers, team members all change focus.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Ryan, let me clarify one thing because I used a quote from you.
I believe 100% that evangelism starts outside the walls of the church building. If it isn’t happening there, it will not happen inside the walls. That is where people are. But, they will come to church and when we get them here, we need to speak to them and relate to them. Paul understood this very well. We shouldn’t need to expect them to conform to us before they attend.
June 13th, 2008 at 12:38 am
The church service is primarily for the body of Christ to congregate together and worship God in spirit and truth with one voice and to be fed truth from the Word by the pastor. Ryan hit the nail on the head when he says that evangelism should occur outside of the church service.
Can evangelism take place during a church service? Absolutely! But that doesn’t mean that it’s our primary focus during worship. 1 Corinthians 14:24-25 tells us that if an unbeliever happens to be among us as we worship, then our worship should be so genuine and fruitful that the unbeliever falls on his face and declares, “God is certainly among you!”
But nowhere does it say to bring seekers to the church but rather we need to go to the seekers and preach the Gospel to them.
Admin said:
“It would seem that our friends … believe that church is for the glorification of God through the edification of the Saints, and that evangelism in the church service itself is good but secondary to that main goal.”
That is exactly what I believe and I believe Scripture backs me up on that.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Maybe I should have clarified. Obviously evangelism can happen in a church *service*, however that’s defined. And yes, it’s important to have classes for non-believers, new believers, etc. But if we completely design our worship services just for the express purpose of evangelism, how can we teach correctly? Sure we can (and need to) stress the Gospel (because we should never lose sight of it and always remember it), but then what?
You might say then people would go to a class to get deeper into the Word and grow, but what of the people who never go to classes but only come to a *service*? They come, hear the Gospel over and over every week and are “evangelised” during the service but never discipled. Eventually they fall through the cracks and either perhaps have a stagnant faith or fall away completely. If you do make the focus of your services evangelism, you must make sure that you have some follow up!
I’m glad I’m getting challenged on this, because it’s forcing me to really think about it. But I think we’re just going to end up being of different viewpoints about the purpose of the “part of church that people come to” - is that better than “service”?
Also, correct teaching of who God is and proper use and interpretation of Scripture will be “evangelistic” automatically. So we don’t have to necessarily change focus because when people hear the truth about God and their hearts are open, they will be changed.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:32 am
That’s not to say that we’re not sensitive to people who might be joining us who are not believers. We always need to be sensitive, explain things that might be hard to understand and make sure we’re not going over people’s heads with things that are completely new to them. But you can do that while still keeping the focus of the meeting aimed towards those who are already saved.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Also..(sorry for lots of comments, I just wanted to clarify some things!)
@InWorship - you mentioned the church not just being Sunday AM. That’s why I clarified the church (building) with the Church (broad, body of believers that does way more than just meet at a building once a week.)
June 13th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Ryan, I agree that the Word needs to be taught, but I don’t necessarily agree that deep theological discussion s need to take place. We have a midweek service that is geared just for that. All are welcome and encourages to attend, but mostly it is believers that want to be discipled and go deeper. We also have numerous classes that study aspects of the Christian faith designed for both believers and non believers. Sunday AM is still the time that those seeking “something” come and check things out. I’ve been in ministry all my life. I grew up as a PK and have been on staff at churches for 15 years. I can count on one hand those who come to church to be indoctrinated. People come to church to find that something they are missing. They need to be consistently pointed to Jesus. Once Jesus is a part of their lives, the “inside of the cup”. that is a process and will not happen, again in my opinion, on Sunday AM through “hearty theological discussion”.
You mentioned this, “But if we completely design our worship services just for the express purpose of evangelism, how can we teach correctly?”
I think this would mess up a lot of “revival” style ministries
But seriously, we teach, but we know that many of the people attending are not going to understand anything about the Christian faith. #1 I want them to be welcomed. #2 I want them to be involved. #3 They cannot leave without hearing about Jesus. That’s a Sunday AM service for us. I have strict guidelines for people involved in our teams, but I will allow a non believer to participate for those reasons alone. I am thankful that the 2 that have been a part, now have thriving relationships with God and one is now in a leadership position on our team.
June 13th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Just a side note here guys. You don’t have to refer to me as admin. I’m only admin because I run the blog. You guys can feel free to call me Killian, or Jeremy, or whatever.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
[…] here regarding the subject of allowing non-Christians to take part in worship ministry.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
The pastor’s responsibility is to “feed the flock”. The same reason for which the gifts were given, through the Holy Spirit, to the church, for the “perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body.” Not for the reaching of the unsaved.
Again, it is the pastor’s responsibility to feed the flock, it is the Christian’s responsibility to reach the lost.
When we start to focus on reaching the lost with our church services, we begin to compromise our standards to draw them in.
June 13th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Nathan, I apologize if this sounds rude, but have you read any of the last couple of comments? What are you talking about?
June 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
“it is the pastor’s responsibility to feed the flock, it is the Christian’s responsibility to reach the lost.”
Am I supposed t understand from what you are saying that I as a Pastor should not care about reaching the lost. Wha??? Sorry dude, I am both a Christian and a Pastor.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:05 am
@Nathan
Couple things - While I’m mostly in agreement with you, you’re statement of “When we start to focus on reaching the lost with our church services, we begin to compromise our standards to draw them in” is only true sometimes. Sure, I bet there are many churches who abandon a primary focus on God’s Word for cultural relevance in order to “draw a crowd” but I know and have witnessed many churches that are very good at reaching out to the unsaved while not compromising their teaching at all.
You’re right, when we compromise it’s a dangerous thing and it could be very easy to slip into compromise when designing stricly evangelistic services. That’s why those here that are holding to that method need to make sure they’re very careful in planning and executing what they’re doing.
Also, I’m not sure if I completely agree with the pastor being the only one responsible to feed the flock and the Christian being the only one to reach the lost. In Paul’s guidelines to Timothy for elders one of the guidelines is that they must be able to teach. This implies that elders have a responsibility to feed the flock as well. Also, the pastor MUST be focused on both caring for the flock and reaching the lost.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:09 am
@Nathan - I forgot to mention that the passage you quoted from 1 Peter 5 isn’t specifically talking about pastors, it’s talking about elders - pastors and/or lay leadership in the church, at least I believe that’s correct interpretation of that passage.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I apologize, I should have been more clear in my post.
I was not implying that a pastor should not be concerned about the salvation of others, what I was trying to do was differentiate between their roles.
As a pastor, his job is to feed the flock, as a Christian his job is to seek for the salvation of the lost.
June 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
[…] Milestone Worship brought us an excellent series called THE REDEMPTIVE WORK OF WORSHIP PART 1, PART 2, & PART 3, as well as another thought provoking addition to the SONGWRITING FOR WORSHIP […]