The Redemptive Work of Worship
I would allow a non-Christian on the platform to play in the worship band. There, I said it, and I’d say it again. I haven’t always believed this way, but I have witenessed some absolutely amazing things in our band lately.
I know the main objections: the band is supposed to be spiritual leadership for the congregation, how can a non-Christian lead Christians to worship? While this might be a pragmatically good idea, the fact is, Scripture is silent about this issue, so I have always hesitated being dogmatic on this issue.
Here’s what I’ve witnessed. Lately, two young men have joined our band. Both had professions of faith, but both had been out of church for a while and their lifestyles reflected that. They weren’t murdering anyone or anything, but there were definitely areas that needed to be adjusted. I was shocked at how quickly these things just changed. I hadn’t really given them direction regarding their shortcomings, but I was just positive and as forgiving to them as I could be, and I tried to lead in good, honest worship from center-stage.
God’s worship makes us humble ourselves, and if we want to continue doing it, we must change, and worship compels us to change ourselves. These young men are doing so well right now, and I am really proud of them. I feel that if I had forced them out because their behaviors weren’t up to par, I would not have been able to witness God’s victory in their lives.
All this emphasizes how powerful worship is. If unredeemed men and women are led in Spirit-filled, humble worship, they will either get in, or get out. My thinking is that a non-Christian could not be part of a worship team for long without being forced to make a decision in one way or another.
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May 28th, 2008 at 9:08 am
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Check out Leviticus 8. The priest, the primary worship leader of the old testament, had to be consecrated to God in a ceremony where blood had to be shed, demonstrating his own unworthiness and the redemptive power of blood.
Who decides how bad is “too bad” to be a part of the worship service? You casually mentioned that they hadn’t killed anyone, but why would that matter if worship has redemptive powers? If a person hasn’t been been washed in the blood, they can get up and perform; but what’s coming out of their mouth is not worship.
Let me say it another way: a person is not saved by singing Amazing Grace, they are saved by amazing grace. If a man were to cry out, confess his sins and call upon Christ and this process were manifest in song, then I’d jump for joy; but it wouldn’t be an non-believer worshiping, it would be a new believer worshiping!
May 28th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Two things from a fellow worship leader:
1) playing music is not the same as worship.
2) God desires worshipers who will worship in spirit and truth. An unredeemed person cannot worship in spirit (because they don’t have the spirit) or truth.
HOWEVER, it sounds to me like what you are saying here is that you had two YOUNG BELIEVERS join your band. Maybe they were not completely conforming from a moral standpoint, but who ever does?? Do they believe that Jesus came to Earth from heaven in the flesh, died on a cross as a substitute for our punishment, and was raised by God’s power? Do they confess him as Lord with their mouth? Perhaps they have a lot of growing to do, but they are redeemed. (I don’t know that this is the case for them, but I’m guessing.)
I don’t think there is redemptive work done by playing in a worship band (as Jesse said), but I might argue for the SANCTIFYING work of a LIFE of worship… (that is, continual submission to God’s will instead of our flesh’s desires).
This got long fast… sorry
I wanted to encourage you with the fact that I have let young believers on stage, in part to encourage and disciple them, and have seen fruit as well! Press on.
May 28th, 2008 at 10:31 am
This idea is part of a larger misconception in many churches today: the idea that church is for unsaved people. We take the Biblical commands to bring the lost to Jesus, and we translate that into “Bring the lost to church”. The Bible model, as well as the commands of Christ are that we first reach the unsaved, lead them to Jesus for salvation, and then bring them to church for discipling.
The moment a church starts to focus on bringing in the unsaved, is the moment that they begin to sacrifice their standards in an effort to appeal to non-Christians.
In direct response to allowing unsaved to be part of a worship band, Proverbs 21:4 says “…the plowing of the wicked, is sin.” Even the most mundane of tasks, plowing a field, is sin when done with a heart that is actively rejecting the saving blood of Jesus. How much more a heart that is actively rejecting Jesus, when they are putting on a show, a mockery really, of “worshiping” Christ.
What is worship? According to Strong’s Concordance worship is: “to bow down, to prostrate ones self, to give reverence to”. If someone, unsaved or a rebellious saved person, is refusing to bow down themselves to God, in their hearts (as evidenced by their refusal to get right with God or accept His salvation) then they are not really “worshiping” when they perform. Why would you want to invite that sin into your church worship service?
May 28th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Let me say one thing. Good comments, even though your are wrong :). I am not advocating allowing someone to play onstage that was directly opposed to God and Christianity work on the worship team. Nor would I allow unsaved people to be the “worship leader’ of a group. However, I would allow a seeker to play in the band.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
A seeker is only a seeker until he finds an answer, then he must choose to accept or reject it. Once a person hears the full gospel message without accepting it he is no longer seeking, he is rebelling, therefore he is directly opposed to God. (Opposition to God is not always as outright as we would like to think)
May 28th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Amen!
I am so grateful that I allowed different musicians to play on our team, that did not know Jesus. Both of them have come to a saving relationship. they were welcomed in and shown to be valuable and they got to know Jesus because of it.
I am kind of curious, there are some good verses brought up here. One is the passage in Leviticus 8. Of which, says nothing about the members of the worship team. If you want to put a qualification on the leader, I would agree.
The other is Proverbs 21:4 which is good, but then the application doesn’t really work for me. I’ve had 3 non-Christians in the music ministry and all were as respectful as any other team member. They were expected to be. In fact they were better team members than some of the Christians.
If church leadership decides not to allow non-Christians to be a part of ministry and service int he church, that is fine. But to take some verses and declare some people as “actively rejecting Jesus, when they are putting on a show, a mockery really, of “worshiping” Christ.” is a stretch.
If someone was showing themselves to be this way, they wouldn’t be on my team. that’s just common sense.
Nathan, I would say also that there is another misconception about church. that the church is a service that happens Sunday AM.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Going to have to agree with inWorship here. None of the texts that you’ve presented really address the issue (except in a sort of arcane way). If I were to apply your logic to my side of the aisle, I’d have to say that Scripture says that the unregenerate earth, rocks and stones, and such, cry out in praise to God. Therefore, anybody and everybody should be able to worship, regardless of their particular religious affections. I’m not necessarily claiming that this is a logical approach, but one that your line of reasoning seems to support.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
…
The issue is whether or not a non-Christian should be a part of a worship band in a church.
The verse I used in Proverbs says, in essence, that anything an unsaved person does is sin, because they are living in a constant state of rejection of Christ. If everything they do is sin, then playing in a “worship” band is sin, and does not contribute to the true worship of Jesus.
Additionally, in Acts 16 a non-Christian was associating with Paul and Silas, even assisting them, by telling people that they had the way of salvation. They did not accept her in, and welcome her, they cast out the demon and sent her away.
Also, the Bible actually says that the stones WOULD cry out, if man was to cease from praising Jesus. And being that stones and the earth are inanimate, that they obey the every law and command of God, they cannot choose to reject Him, or live in rebellion, so translating that to people does not work.
I am not saying that non-Christains never get saved when they are allowed to play in a worship band. I am saying we should not alter our understanding of the Bible based on our personal experiences.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
The Bible is silent on the issue, Nate. As much as you attempt to try to prove this Biblically, it just ain’t there.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Well, I assume that this was not supposed to turn into a debate, so I will depart with this comment:
An argument cannot be made based on your forgone conclusion of the answer. Essentially what you have said is, you are right, therefore I must be wrong, despite any argument presented.
In addition to being a poor debating method, it’s also the reason why so many “religious” people are seen as closed minded. We simply dismiss things as being wrong without ever giving any evidence to support our conclusions.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:53 am
Nathan and Jesse, I gotta say that I concur with you. Just because Scripture doesn’t directly say that we shouldn’t lead worship in our underwear doesn’t make it a good idea. There are two concepts that I believe are relevant here.
1) All mankind are obligated to worship, yet only the worship of the redeemed is acceptable to God. Every knee will bow before Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11; Rev. 5:13) glorifying God. Yet after they do so the unredeemed will be cast into hell. The ONLY reason our worship is pleasing to God is because of our relationship to Jesus. I Peter 2:5 says that we can offer up acceptable spiritual sacrifices only by Jesus Christ. Jesus is what makes my worship a pleasure to God. Having the unregenerate take part in leading worship seems to indicate that what they offer is acceptable to God. It isn’t. It won’t make them more acceptable to God either. Worsihp isn’t a halfway house to salvation.
2) It seems to be a dangerous thing to let those who are lost become leaders or responsible for things in a church. Many people like this come to depend upon their membership or position to make them acceptable to God. They are deceived into thinking that they will be accepted by God because of their role or position rather than by a new birth. This tragic misunderstanding does indeed happen. We shouldn’t encourage it.
Fire away!
May 31st, 2008 at 11:39 pm
I myself is a product of the same situation that was described on the post. I don’t have a verse to support what happened to me and how my life got turned around, but it did. Having said that, playing guitar with the worship team has nothing to do with my salvation. I’m sure that God had used it for me to accept Jesus Christ, in whom only salvation can come.
although I myself have seen mixed results with this methodology. i still think that if the situation presented itself then it has to be accepted. nobody knows what will happen tomorrow and definitely, nobody knows what God has planned for each and everyone.
June 5th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I just stumbled across this blog from Google and read through this post along with the comments. I’m going to have to agree with Nathan and the rest who agree that non-Christians should not be on the worship-leading team.
Can God use a scenario such as a non-Christian on a worship team as a means of saving them? Of course He can. That doesn’t mean that it’s an acceptable practice. God always has to turn our sin for His good: that’s the very definition of redemption. That doesn’t give us the license to sin. As Paul says in Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!”
Not to mention the fact that “admin” is showing signs of arrogance and stubbornness. You seem more intent on proving yourself to be right rather than seeking to know how God has ordained us to worship Him. As for your argument that the Bible doesn’t have a stance on the issue, the person of “worship leader” doesn’t exist in Scripture. The true worship leaders in the church are the pastors. Does that mean we shouldn’t have worship leaders anymore?
June 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Here is the problem I see with churches today.
The church is way more interested in rules and traditions…or opinions than it is on sharing God’s love.
It’s also really good and cutting it’s own down…ridiculous!
June 9th, 2008 at 7:17 am
[…] Monday, June 9th, 2008 @ 7:17 am | Worship leading There’s been a
June 9th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Here is a very good post and discussion on this topic from Worship Matters. It might be helpful for all to read this.
Also, Milestone, one of the most important, if not the most important character attribute a worship leader can have is humility. A response like, “good comments, even though they are wrong” really shouldn’t be acceptable from a worship leader. We’re leading worship on our blogs just as much as we’re leading worship on a Sunday morning.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Guys, I think you all are taking the “enough though you are wrong” a little out of context. The : ) after the statement generally denotes someone speaking “tongue-in-cheek.” Let’s stay on topic and refrain from judging the author’s humility.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I guess that’s kind of the point that I was trying to make. Just because you add a smily face after your comment doesn’t change what the comment really means. We have to be even more careful what we say online because no one can really tell what we actually mean. So our words mean more and hold more weight here. A more constructive way to say it would have been “I appreciate your comments a lot. Let me show you where I still see some error in them, however.”
I wasn’t trying to “judge” the author’s comments, just remind the author of the importance of humility and the importance of choosing our words carefully.